Jonny Go Figure: Musical Youth’s Roots Run Deep
“I’m sorry I didn’t pretty this up for you guys,” Jonny Go Figure says, walking into the center of his Flatbush, Brooklyn living room which is littered with records. “I know it looks like a clusterfuck in here, but this is just how it is. And I know where everything is.”
Jonny closes his eyes and thinks of a record he hasn’t played in a while before digging into a stack and pulling out reggae breakbeat LP by Paul Nice and DJ Wisdom called Beef Patty Breaks. He explains the history of the album cover, which features an iconic image of model Sintra Arunte-Bronte in a wet, red Jamaica t-shirt.
Jonny can pick random hidden records from his collection and throw facts at you all day, but never in a condescending way. He began DJing at age 4 after his father, who was also a DJ, gave him vinyl to play with. He easily rattles off history, producers and connections behind the music in the same way others might talk about their favorite sci-fi worlds.
Now in his 30s, Jonny Go Figure’s deep appreciation for the underground, producers, one hit wonders, underdogs and canonical knowledge of reggae has put him in deep with New York’s varied reggae community. A producer, emcee, singer and DJ, Jonny is regularly behind the decks throughout New York City. He has regular gigs.at Lovers Rock in Bed Stuy and on POR Radio, and also tours with bands or his crew, Deadly Dragon Sound System.
Jonny had just returned from a Canadian tour with his band, Megative, when we stopped by. We caught up with the long-time DJ and his father, Desmond, on a too humid day in August.
What’s up Jonny. Can you tell me about yourself?
I grew up in Brooklyn. Born in Coney Island, spent some time in Guyana, Virginia, came back to New York. I grew up in Flatbush – this was my mother’s apartment.
Desmond [Jonny’s dad]: I made a monster though, a music monster. That’s what happens when you start DJing at 4.
How do you trust a 4-year-old with your records?
Desmond: Either that or he would’ve been tearing up the school. Once we said we had a deal, he was good. He was good in school. Of course he’s gonna damage my records but that’s the price. He damaged a couple needles and scratched records, but not for long.
He grew up listening to all kinds of music – R&B, funk, reggae, soca, calypso. Everything. We got records all over the place, this is not it.
Is that Fleetwood Mac yours Desmond?
No that’s his.
Steely Dan – Aja. My dad is from British Guyana and grew up listening to everything: The Beatles, Charlie Pride, Patsy Cline, The Equals, Steely Dan.
I wouldn’t have pegged that for you Jonny.
Desmond: You would be surprised, we used to go digging for records when he was a little boy and he knows everything.
Jonny: I love Steely Dan. The Royal Scam is my favorite Steely Dan album.
I just charge into vibes, into the vibrations that I feel…so I express myself accordingly.
So is there a method to the madness here?
There’s really no method, but I have ADD, so they say like it’s hard for you to concentrate and things like that, but I never had a hard time concentrating on this. When I was young and watching [Desmond] play, I would study where he would put things and stuff. What is that – a photographic memory — so if I look at it and I remember where it is.
You have this wide musical taste but do you play all of them or do you just have the collecting bug?
All of the above. I buy records to play them because I’m a very active DJ. Then I also buy records – I make beats as well – if I hear something dope I’ll buy it to sample it.
There was a record I bought the day of the WFMU Record Fair called The 123s of Kid Soul. I know this though because my friend Vaughn All-Star, who does a reggae show on Saturday morning, and a young lady after him played some song from this. I think it was called “I’m a Special Kid,” and thought I like this I could definitely flip this. So I Shazaamed it and got this cover. I didn’t know they pressed it on vinyl until I went to this pop-up.
It’s sad how a lot of these artists ended up dying homeless and stuff like that – it came with a book – and the stories in there are very interesting. It makes me kind of want to start collecting the 7s. It’s cool to have a comp, but the 7s must be very rare and stuff.
I’ve played it out once. I don’t really get asked to do gigs outside of reggae which makes me sad because I have a lot of non-reggae shit that I like to play. My boy 100 dbs does a night called The Mix Up at Robert Bar in downtown Brooklyn. He invited me to play and I brought this, but this is mainly for sample purposes. I like to listen to this as well.
Numero Group compilation #066 – The 123s of Kid Soul. This cool compilation is basically a bunch of rare soul tunes from one away – I mean one hit wonders or artists who never got the bus — in the vain of The Sylvers or the Jackson 5.
Do you use the liner notebooks inside comps like these as a reference for digging?
Sometimes. When I’m digging for reggae tunes and there’s all this stuff that’s super duper rare and expensive and it’s hard to find, I’ll focus on that first because that’s what I predominately play.
When I have a little play money, then I’ll look at this comp book and see what I want. The other day I was looking at Discogs for a nice clean pressing of “Impeach The President;” I have a repressing but I want one of the OG. The OG is very expensive but there’s something about it!
Do you have thoughts and feelings about playing original pressings versus getting represses or reissues?
I feel like it’s usually people that don’t DJ that are the ones who are very gung ho on that aesthetic of it has to be OG. I have a lot of OG pressings, but it would make my life a whole lot easier if they repressed the tune and I could spend a whole lot less buying it. As an adult you don’t really have, like, a lot of money to spend on this one soul record.
I don’t see the issue in the repress. I don’t care. Is the record playable? That’s all that matters. Does the record sound good? That’s all that matters. A lot of the time you’ll spend all this money on an OG pressing and it sounds like shit. And it’s like, you can’t do nothing with it, just to say you have an OG pressing.
I just got a really huge amount of respect for that dude trying to keep this thing alive, having a record store, I just admired that. I’m just down for him. And then next thing you know, I’m Dragon.
Do you have one OG pressing you’re really proud of?
I have a few that I’m proud of. At that same WFMU Record Fair, one of my friends was vending and a lot of the records were like a dollar, 50 cents or something like that. I found an OG pressing for a dollar of Bob Marley and The Wailers’ “Hypocrites” on the Wailing Soul label. If you know anything about that record, to find an OG of that press is not easy.
Another one I’m proud of is a blank, it’s “Johnny Cool Man.” The cool thing about this is that this record was given to me by Scratch Famous, Deadly Dragon. He was drunk one night and played this tune and kept shaking me like, “Jonny listen to this!” At the end he was drunk as hell, like, “Nah man fuck this, you need to have this! You need to have this!” And I was like, “It’s a $400 record son! “ And he was like, “Nah man it doesn’t matter, we’re brothers. Take this you’re my Jewish son!” All kinds of shit. So he gave me this record.
He definitely helped me a lot to grow my collection. I bought a lot of records from Deadly Dragon when they were open.
This Deadly Dragon sign was the sign we used to use for our parties. Jeremy gave that to me.
How did you get involved with the Deadly Dragon crew?
I met Jeremy about 6, 7 years ago. I was doing music at the time and was looking for a place to shoot a video, so I bug up on this record store in Lower East Side and didn’t realize it was Deadly Dragon. I’ve known about them because they used to have a show on East Village Radio. I used to listen every Monday, but I didn’t know they had a shop, I didn’t know they sold records, I thought it was just the sound.
I used to do reggae parties all the time but I wasn’t able to get into any. My dad tried to take me to one.
Deadly Dragon dub plate of Jr. Cat. I don’t play this out that much because I guess the person who pressed it forgot to EQ it, so you hear some shit on one side and some shit on the other side. But it’s so heavy man.
Because you were underage?
Yeah I was 20 at the time.
Desmond: Funny thing is, he performed at the same spot like a week before, but he can’t go to something there. I took him to a party that was like Johnny Osbourne, Yami Bolo, Tony Tuff. I was so mad that I had to bring him back home, and then I came back! I said “Jonny man, I’m so sorry you can’t go to the show, it was so good you would’ve enjoyed it.” And his face was so sad, like he really wanted to see that show.
I always used to tell him about these artists and going to see them at Biltmore Ballroom on Church Avenue, which is no more, all these different places,Tilden Hall, where they used to have Supercat and the whole fraternity back then. He always wanted to experience that.
Jonny: At this point, I wasn’t event DJing like that. I was semi-retired.
You were semi-retired before 30?
Yeah before 30, crazy right? So I got more into production. I’m looking at the store and it looks all too familiar because my dad used to take me to a lot of record stores when I was younger, and I got that feeling back. So I got some records and I remember Jeremy was playing this tune called “Problem Everywhere” and I was like oh yeah that’s Garnett Silk, a very iconic reggae singer, and he kinda died very young. I was like that was his first tune. And Jeremy looked at me like, how does this kid know this?
And we got cool after that. I remember it was a Wednesday I met him, and Thursday he was like, come out to my party called Downtown Top Ranking. I went the next day and went every Thursday from then on. I kind of became the sound effects guy — it was like a graduation kind of thing you start form kindergarten and then get into first grade. I started just helping them, carrying they shit, messing with the sound, sound effect box, FX box. Then graduated to the mic man, emcee. Then it got to the point where they asked me to start bringing records, like he liked how I played because I played for a few events like an understudy/apprentice.
I just got a really huge amount of respect for that dude trying to keep this thing alive, having a record store, I just admired that. I’m just down for him. And then next thing you know, I’m Dragon.
I’d love a breakdown of what you do because I know you do a lot, a lot. Too much maybe.
I do things. I’m a background singer, percussionist, DJ in Megative. This is more the brainchild of my friend Gus. Screechy Dan, who’s a staple in the New York community, he’s part of this band. We did the Montreal Jazz Festival, Quebec City Festival, Hillside Festival and a TV show in Toronto for CBC.
Desmond: You need to rest! I’ve been there, your body shuts down.
Jonny: My dad always gets on me. I dunno, I just charge into vibes, into the vibrations that I feel…so I express myself accordingly.
As a reggae guy it’s very important to have 7s because, especially when you play big tunes at a reggae dance, 9 out of 10 times someone is going to ask you to play it back, to pull it up.
So you do vocals with Megative, but I’ve seen you perform with The Frightnrs after Dan Klein passed.
I was singing with them for a little while. Even today it’s still kind of a touchy thing to speak about. Me and Dan were working neighbors in downtown Brooklyn – I worked at Guitar Center and he worked at this coffee shop. I would see him regularly, he’d pop in stuff and I’d pop in to his shop and say what’s up – but I don’t drink coffee.
Megative – Don’t Do Drugz. It’s a flexidisk, it looks like a fruit roll up but doesn’t taste as good.
You don’t drink coffee? Do you know how many cups of coffee I’ve had today? Four.
You’re wiiiired! It tastes like rubbish. I don’t really like the taste of it. I drank it a few times and I don’t like how it makes me feel. Coffee just makes me sick. Tea, I like tea.
These are my boys, my guys. I had the opportunity to hear Nothing More To Say way in advance. This record, man, is a very important record, especially for Daptone because it expanded the ability for them to release things other than soul music. It really opened my eyes to how people still care about music, the quality of music. Daptone, I feel like they really focus on quality of how their shit sounds, and because of that it was big for these dudes to be on their label.
If you’ve been in the scene for a while, especially when Dan was around, you would see The Frightnrs perform everywhere. This shit is still sealed because it is a color copy.
The Frightnrs – Nothing More To Say. It’s hard to talk about this record. I remember when it was being made and being a fan and bugging them to get an advance copy and play it. I was like “yo yo yo” and it got to the point when Dan got annoyed with me asking.
Is there anything you’ve gotten recently that you’re stoked on?
I got this super deep roots record album. I’m obsessed with like the underdogs. Artists that really had potential, but nobody got. This group from Jamaica called Earth and Stone, one of my favorite reggae groups, had an album called Kool Roots that was reissued by Pressure Sounds. If you find the original pressings of that then they’re usually cash, especially get the singles or a 12 because they were pressed in England and they were expensive.
At Record City, I found a tune of theirs, one of my favorite tunes, on 12. It’s usually ridiculously expensive, but check the price tag, got it for $100. I played this at a dance recently and a lot of my friends went crazy because it’s a rare 12 and it doesn’t pop at all.
Other collectors, like Jeremy, that guy has a craaaazy collection. Out of this world! To me it wasn’t the quantity of records that he had but the quality of records. I want to have that much quality within my collection, so a lot of the tunes that I do have, to me, are very important. Flavorful tunes.
The fact that I saw other kids doing music, I was like wow. All I heard back then is that oh this is a grown man’s thing, a grown man’s sport. Kind of a “you’re too short for this ride” kind of thing. Then I see them doing it and it’s like, they’re kids just like me – if they can do it, I can definitely do it.
You have so many Musical Youth albums. Why is that group so important to you?
When I was introduced to this record, it changed my life. This is the original copy of this album, The Youth of Today, I’ve had since I was about 5. It’s in horrible condition but obviously I keep it for sentimental reasons.
Musical Youth – The Youth of Today. I was so into Musical Youth that I even drew them when I was a kid.
Musical Youth are probably known for a tune called “Pass The Dutchie;” the first time I heard that it changed my life. The fact that I saw other kids doing music, I was like wow. All I heard back then is that oh this is a grown man’s thing, a grown man’s sport. Kind of a “you’re too short for this ride” kind of thing. Then I see them doing it and it’s like, they’re kids just like me – if they can do it, I can definitely do it.
They were so talented. The funny thing is, the formation of the group was two sets of brothers, and the drummer and the bassist’s father used to be in The Techniques with Slim Smith and Winston Riley. The father had them play instruments and he would sing, but it wasn’t really a cash cow thing, so he had an idea of turning them into a boy band kind of thing. Then they hired the singer Dennis Seaton and that’s how the formation of Musical Youth came along.
The second album was so trash, but as a fan you have to stick with the band though! I play this out many times. I love Musical Youth.
Musical Youth albums. When I saw other kids making music, it solidified to me that I wanted to do this.
Do you have a preferred format – LPs, 12s, 7s?
I’m definitely more comfortable with 12s, because I kind of come from the era of the hip-hop DJ, the turntablists. But as a reggae guy, there’s nothing more cool than the 7. To play an album at a reggae dance as a reggae selector is not necessarily the coolest thing, it’s kind of like you have the tune but you don’t have the tune. The only time that’s acceptable is when the tune hasn’t been released as a single.
Lennie Hibbert- Village Caller. This is a cover of a soul version with the same name by Johnny Lytle. Lennie Hibbert was part of Studio One’s house band.
What are some of your favorite sub-genres or styles of reggae?
One of my nicknames is the Brooklyn Bloke, because I have a nice cool connection with England and stuff like that. I have a lot of UK people, I have family in the UK, I have a lot of UK influence. One of my favorite sounds is a sound called Saxon; the cool thing about Saxon is they had a lot of talented, talented emcees and singers like Maxi Priest who started out Saxon, and Smiley Culture, rest in peace.
Tippa Irie – It’s good to have the feeling you’re the best. This dude was one of my favorite Saxon guys; this is a tune I definitely play a lot.
What are some tunes that you play out often or rarely leave your box?
I play “The Village Caller”– this one is pretty cool because you know the soul version, which I also have on 7, so you’ll appreciate this version. I’ll definitely play “Be Thankful For What You Got” by Donovan Carless at Lovers Affair. That’s a party I do with two of my friends, Joseph Demenson and Fidel Twice. I play straight up UK lovers, Jamaican lovers, but mainly UK lovers because there’s a lot of British people living in New York.
I also have a thing for reggae records that aren’t pressed in Jamaica. I think it’s cool that there’s other countries pressing reggae. This is my dad’s record actually, “Natty Dread in Greenwich Farm,” it was pressed in Barbados. It doesn’t sound the greatest but it’s a cool song. I play this one a lot.
Why are you interested in all the different places that press reggae records?
Because it just goes to show that not everything was happening in Jamaica. And that’s what people need to understand — they feel like everything reggae happened in Jamaica. You have other countries that were listening to it, playing it, you probably have big sounds out of countries like Barbados, Trinidad, Grenada, but they’ll never get the recognition because they’re not Jamaican, you know?
For a person that isn’t Jamaican, I feel like it’s cool that other places were pressing reggae and stuff like that.
I’m fanatic, fanatic about reggae music — it’s just something I grew up with and I don’t think you have to be Jamaican to know and understand reggae.Earth and Stone – False Ruler. Earth and Stone is one of my favorite reggae groups and I found one of my favorite tunes of theirs at Record City on a 12, which is usually ridiculously expensive.
Prince Buster- Johnny Cool. I’m proud of this blank — the cool thing about this is that this record was given to me by Scratch Famous of Deadly Dragon.
Right. Like how many people do you know in the scene that are huge into reggae and aren’t Jamaican?
A lot of em! A lot of them are my friends. That’s why I trip off of things like this, it might seem small to you but it’s cool to me.
Some veteran Jamaican artists are upset because Jamaicans aren’t necessarily winning the reggae war or whatever. But they need to understand that there’s a reason why singers in reggae music talking about “reggae gon’ international, tell ya reggae gon’ international” – ‘cause it’s international yo! It’s not on this one little island anymore. There’s other people doing it; it’s the same thing how hip-hop started here and now the whole world does it.
I love harmonies, that’s the thing that really grabs me about a song, when I hear some smooth harmonies. Aswad had harmonies man, cool harmonies, and the same thing with Steel Pulse.
Do you have a favorite reggae singer that’s not Jamaican, or from some place you might not expect?
I know a lot of artists in France – Pupajim, Junior Roy, Ras Mac Bean. I even know some that’s coming out of Italy, like Alborosie who just dropped an album that has Beres Hammond and Chronixx on it. There’s a lot out of Brazil, like Junior Dread, and Senior Wilson is from Spain.
There’s a lot of reggae artists coming out of different countries that are definitely doing their thing, I just DJed for one on Friday at Brooklyn Bowl, she’s super duper huge in Argentina, her name is Alika. I saw the amount of people who came out and knew word for word her music. It amazed the shit out of me.
There’s still a lot of artists from Jamaica that I love. Some of my favorite bands, to me they’re kind of like brother bands, are Steel Pulse and Aswad.
Aswad – Showcase. I like the showcase albums because it basically sums up what they can do, it’s like a portfolio.
Ras Mac Bean – Pack Up And Leave. Ras Mac Bean was a French reggae artist, Guyanese though, my dad grew up with him. He signed this record for him.
Can you tell us more about the differences between UK reggae and Jamaican reggae?
Clearly Jamaica is a very poor country, the money doesn’t really circulate. So a lot of the music that was coming out of Jamaica was from the sufferation. You hear the sufferation within their voices, it’s more of a struggle kind of vibe, still dope.
Versus UK reggae, England has much more resources. Even though, in these times, it was very difficult to live in England as a black person, because racism was at an all-time high. You had a thing called the Sus Law, which is basically a much more aggressive version of stop and frisk, where you could just be doing your own thing and, police, without any evidence or anything would have them say “I’m gonna take you in.”
But the sound was much more polished in the UK – they had better recording studios, and also they had sweet harmonies. Like Aswad “Rainbow Culture,” this is very pretty and harmonic. Jamaican reggae was not sounding like this; UK reggae was much more colorful.
I’m a harmony guy, I love harmonies. From time to time I’ll sing with this band called The Full Watts and they do a lot of rocksteady numbers. I love harmonies, that’s the thing that really grabs me about a song, when I hear some smooth harmonies. Aswad had harmonies man, cool harmonies, and the same thing with Steel Pulse.
Who’s your favorite foundation vocal group?
The Mighty Diamonds, Heptones, Earth and Stone, Matumbi, Aswad.
The Mighty Diamonds – Africa. I got to DJ for The Mighty Diamonds a few weeks back, which was cool because they’re one of my favorite groups. Harmonies, harmonies, harmonies.
I want to know more about other genres you’re into, and genres that speak to you beyond reggae. Things you wish people would ask you to play out more.
I dunno, I feel like because of what I can do, I always loop back to reggae. But there’s a story about this album, Arthur Verocai, he’s a Brazilian jazz composer. I’ve been looking for this album since 2005 and there was this Brazilian record store called Tropicalia in Furs. I saw this record, OG pressing like $700. I was like yeah, well…nah.
Then fast forward 2017. I’m in Montreal at this record store and, boom, I see this. It’s a limited reissue from Brazil, I think they pressed like 200. I spent like $15. Arthur Verocai doesn’t even do interviews like that. He’s a very introverted guy.
Michael Jackson was an entertainer– he could dance, he could sing, he could entertain you – but Prince was writing his own music, producing his own music, and his first few albums he played all the instruments. He was an amazing guitar player.
Arthur Verocai – Arthur Verocai. This was produced in 1972 and there’s a lot of layers to it, but it’s simple at the same time, to me I think that’s what makes it cool. It’s the only album he ever put out.
But you’re also into producers, right? Are there any non-reggae producers that you’re super into?
You can’t really go wrong with Quincy Jones man, that guy is a genius.
Quincy Jones – You’ve Got It Bad Girl. This record is so good I had to get it twice; if you’re a hip-hop head you should definitely know “Summer In The City.”
What’s up with those albums hanging on the wall over there?
To me it’s kind of the trinity of really good music, iconic music, people who changed the game.
The Beatles come on; Michael Jackson, genius; Marley, genius; Prince, which is personally my guy.
Michael Jackson was an entertainer– he could dance, he could sing, he could entertain you – but Prince was writing his own music, producing his own music, and his first few albums he played all the instruments. He was an amazing guitar player. The guy was a prodigy – the quality of music and his songwriting, out of this world. Michael Jackson didn’t write a lot of his music, he had to send for other writers like Rod Temperton, who was the keyboard player of a group called Heatwave and he wrote on Off The Wall and Thriller.
I won’t take anything away from Michael Jackson though, the guy is a genius, but Prince is more my guy.
Prince – Purple Rain. People ask me Michael Jackson or Prince, and I’m like Prince every time.
To me this is kind of the trinity of really good music, iconic music, people who changed the game.
Do you have a comfort record, one you can put on that makes you feel good no matter what?
I do. Donald Byrd, Stepping Into Tomorrow. I can listen to this thing all the way through and just get vibes. This album was made in 1975. I like jazz, but I like more of jazz fusion, things fused to funk and soul. I’m not too into the traditional stuff. I like something with excitement, I feel like this record has excitement. To me, anything Blue Note is like money.
I’m surprised that your comfort record isn’t a reggae record.
Yeah. Here’s my theory on that – as much as I love reggae, and I love reggae, too much of one thing is not good for anybody. You’ve got to have everything in moderation. I’d personally lose my mind if all I listed to was reggae all the time. Good music is good music and I got lucky to grow up in a house where I was hearing all kinds of music, not just reggae.
As much as I’m a reggae head, I’m a huge hip-hop head and De La Soul is definitely my favorite hip-hop group. These dudes, they’re the reason why I got the peace tattoo sign, I got this when I was like 21. It was just more assuring for me, hearing them, that it was cool to be yourself.
De La Soul – Jenifa Taught Me/Potholes In My Lawn. They came out in a time when Rakim and Big Daddy Kane, and the big gold chains and they were just being themselves- no chains no nothing, just weird haircuts. They dressed like I would dress – I would definitely wear this shirt. I would super wear that shirt! Maybe not the pants. The pants are too distressed for me.
De La Soul – Me Myself and I. This is the first big hit – notice it says three sides. How does a record have three sides?
De La Soul – Me Myself and I. There’s two songs on here but they’re intertwined into each other so the grooves kinda have this zebra pattern. Depending on where you drop the needle is what song you’ll get.
Desmond, what’s your comfort record?
A Taste of Honey, “Sukiyaki.” I like it for a lot of reasons. It was originally a Japanese song by Kyu Sakamoto, it reminds me of when I was growing up and I used to be in the soundsystem. This is one of the tunes that girlfriends liked, and you know, my first girlfriend loved this song.
Jonny: I actually have a reggae version of that song.
A Taste of Honey – Sukijyaki and Donald Byrd – Stepping Into Tomorrow. Nothing in this universe can ever add up to everything my parents have done for me, so I strive for success through the music. Hopefully they’re proud, well more so my mother, I already know Pops is proud which makes me pretty happy. Love you Mom and Dad!
So why the name Jonny Go Figure?
There’s a lot of answers to that. I usually tell people it’s like I’m not the easiest book to read. But truth be told, when I lived on East 21st Street in Flatbush, my neighbors were twin brothers and I used to run with them a lot. One of them worked for Russell Simmons at the time and I was kind of chillin’ with them, being like a little bratty kid, and something he would always say was “go figure.”
He was working on putting out a website for like subculture material and underground type shit and he didn’t know what to call it and I was like, “You might as well call it gofigure.com ” and he was like, yo that’s cool.
So I make beats or whatever and he needed some beats for the website and said “I’m gonna make you like the social director for the website.” His name was Steve and he was Stevie Go Figure and I was — Jonny Go Figure. But I didn’t really start using it until I started doing my own music.
Who would you like to see next on Dust & Grooves?
I strongly want to see Grace of Spades and Jah Wise – Their collections are out of this world!
Roots in Reality EP – Life Inna Brooklyn, This is my first time being on vinyl, on Bent Back records in 2017. Fari DiFuture and Autarchii were Talking about Africa and so in contrast I was talking about here.